Merely ‘Ellen’s’ identity remains a secret, there seems to be no-you to named Ellen or Helen, but possibly an ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s top (Eleanor regarding Aquitaine, mother out of Joanna’s father King John)

Hey, folk. It is it’s interesting; what i wouldn’t features given to have access to this post twenty-five years in the past when i are evaluating and you can creating Right here Feel Dragons!

The primary reason for which exercising is to test, because of the a review of genealogist’s feedback about the subject by contacting specific recognized fresh provide, to determine who was simply mom from Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Was she Joanna, spouse out of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, died. March 1237) or are she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch away from Rhos, mistress of Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, died??

I will follow this with a vacation data into you can lifetime away from a ded Susanna, offered off to Queen Henry 111 given that a beneficial hostage from inside the 1228 with her custody are supplied in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun along with his spouse Clementia.

The fresh new opinions of your own Genealogists which i has read are just one to, opinions, and disagree significantly. No definite proof is present regardless, but have to declare that most hold for Gwladus are the new child away from Joanna. This is particularly true of your genealogists of descendants off the fresh De Braose members of the family, but they ily as tied to both Filippiiniläiset naiset avioliittoon the Welsh and you may English regal homes!

The ensuing list out of Llywelyn’s several legitimate and you can illegitimate pupils appears as basically approved by the all of the genealogists which i has examined with the exception of variations more than whether # 9 really existed. The latest times from beginning the following also are debated because of the specific:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, created circa.1206, passed away 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? died circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince away from Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about it day, see later), passed away twenty five February 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, died 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, you’ll dual to help you Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Died 1259?

There’s far argument along side title of your mothers of these college students. You will find general arrangement your only certain college students from Llywelyn’s age Prince out of Wales and Ellen (Helen) who partnered (1) John the latest Scot, son of your earl off Chester and you can (2) Robert de Quincy. Even if thoughts are separated over the parents of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna, the majority of the genealogists We have analyzed lean for the the mom getting Joanna.

It is partially with regards to heading dates away from birth because the well as his or her marriage ceremonies to various marcher lords who, you to supposes, could have looked for so you’re able to fall into line their homes to that particular of the neighbor, brand new Prince off Northern Wales with his wife, new king out-of England’s child. It’s felt that this type of lords of your February wouldn’t have obtained really appeal otherwise governmental motivation in the marrying out of its sons towards the illegitimate daughters from an effective Welsh prince having a great Welsh lady.

As to what labels of those people, whether or not by Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise other people, these were all entitled after people in Llywelyn’s family relations:

Ken, we have been entirely on the financial obligation

Llywelyn’s mom is actually entitled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ off Gwynedd. Their paternal grandma was named ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father away from their granny Susanna, was indeed ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you may ‘Angharad’ regarding Flint and you will one another the names received so you can Llywelyn’s pupils. Which Susanna together with had a sister titled ‘Gwenllian’, a similar label as the Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.